The Panel | Discussion Transcript | Open Discussion
In 'Create' Rich is exploring the theoretical, conceptual and practical possibilities of creating an 'original' net/software artwork - that is, a work that remains unique in a digital environment. 'Remove' concerns censoring art available on the net. The result will form a comprehensive archive of censored artworks. One half creates - art is made by addition. One half removes - art is made by subtraction.
Marc Garrett - net artist - http://www.furtherfield.orgMarc Garrett chaired this event and is a net artist & co-director of Furtherfield.org
Charlie Gere - Lecturer /Author - Digital Culture (Reaktion Books, 2002)Charlie Gere is Lecturer in Digital Art History in the School of History of Art, Film and Visual Media, Birkbeck College, University of London. He is the author of Digital Culture (Reaktion Books, 2002). He is currently undertaking research into the relation between speed, technology and the avant-garde.
Giles Lane - http://www.diffusion.org.uk - http://www.proboscis.org.uk/publicationsGiles Lane is the founder and director of Proboscis, a non profit creative studio and cultural think tank. Giles founded and edited COIL journal of the moving image (1995-2000) as well as conceiving and developing the DIFFUSION eBook downloadable book format. He has published around 30 titles in this format since 2000. In 1998 Giles founded the imprint RCA CRD RESEARCH at the Royal College of Art where he commissioned, edited and published five books on experimental interaction design projects. He has written other books on digital design and creativity for Rotovision and product design company IDEO.
Rich White - Resident artist on FurtherStudio - www.counterwork.co.uk.RICH WHITE uses various themes and ideas to explore the meaning and value of art including art history, context, perception, time-travel, decontextualisation and censorship. For the Furtherstudio residency Rich is creating a project with two parallel bodies of work under the headings 'create' and 'remove'.
In 'Create' Rich is exploring the theoretical, conceptual and practical possibilities of creating an 'original' net/software artwork - that is, a work that remains unique in a digital environment. 'Remove' concerns censoring art available on the net. The result will form a comprehensive archive of censored artworks. One half creates - art is made by addition. One half removes - art is made by subtraction.
olla and hello everyone. we are going to discuss the work bob@nowhere.tv by Jess loseby. during her residency, Jess has sent 22 emails to bob presented in a form of flash/video and html. the complete project is available at: http://www.no-where.tv/ I'd like to start with a question to Jess before we go to the panel. Jess, in regard to the process of creating the work. in what way has your thought process of creating the work changed throughout the project ?
thanks Doron, well I hoped for a little more input from bob...and it became rather insular... a one sided conversation...
but there was not, why is that
its was rather spooky how my relationship with 'bob'... quickly started to reflect my relationship with the net..
I'd like to ask you one more question:
do you see this body of work as part of your journey to expand your personal consciousness throughout the net medium, or are you taking a new position with the work?
no - extending an old one, but I do see it as a journey, trying to connect with the 'other'.
there are not many 'others' left..
...explain?
looks like there was not much involvement on the bob side..
yes - he started well enough...but soon became rather moody and judgemental
which i did not mind, i still like the project one sided..
his last mail was an swipe at a uk gov organization. the 'other' came from the residency - the chat room
JA, you have a chance to see the work, any comment?
i enjoyed the piece. the bbc church piece i thought was particularly good.
bringing bbc icons to the altar… ohhh the weight of media:)
May I ask a nuts & bolts Q?
Hi, yes
Could you explain exactly which resources Further Studio provided & where they can be found reflected or subsumed in this work?
futherfield gave me a free run from its pages & contributors … so it was like running round a gallery with scissors..
Good image.
you can see text, images, sounds in all the pieces, in bob's mail images, even, I also took icons, texts from reviews etc
I think my fave aspect is the "distributed narrative"
I see the names of other people in the 'attachments' column...so you were collaborating with others?
yes, fragmentation has always be a thang of mine
'puppet.html' (bush on strings), 'click to the rhythm',isn't it that you positioning yourself beyond the 'domestic daily routine' and more as the critic/artist saying what he has to say?
no- 'personal is politics'…no move from domestic, war is a domestic issue
but in re to my Q, you're saying he's also a collage?
yes... more intertextual than collage perhaps
the radio was often on as I was working, which influences … half heard fragments of news, songs and conversations
'rhizome-would like to have you back', and 'forget spamblockers' are critical pieces as well, not so personal.
they were sent to bob…I had no control
we are bob
yes… (ish)…you could be bob
JA, Jess works is related to the creation of cyber-culture.
do you agree? I mean bob@nowhere is this a new cyber-expression
I'm curious, like Blackhawk, about the residency. What was your involvement with the folks at furtherfield, Jess, in the piece?
we worked for a month beta testing, which was fantastic, and gave the residency a real sense of place…although it was virtual… I always felt I was working in a studio
Are you and Marc in the same city?
no - I am on the south coast of UK…and they are in London. We only met once (in real space)
Was this a piece you had in mind previously or was it specifically suggested by the possibilities inherent in the residency?
I proposed 'bob' from the brief..
Jess, are the individual works in the 'bob' project a stream of artistic consciousness?
yes, I tried to treat it as a conversation to the works came off the emails or what I was thinking daily
When I was 'artist in residence' in Toronto, I did Paris Connection with 15 people, none of whom were in Toronto. 'in residence' does move around in net.art, for sure.
yes, incredibly exciting, also, as you may or may not know I have usually been limited in 'real' space
in what way?
as I am a wheel chair user...
no, i didn't know
ah ha! surprise:) the Furtherfield residency is groundbreaking in that respect, breaking down barriers, globally & physically…no more time and place hurrah! (rant)
I think what interesting in the project is how personal consciousness manifested into the net environment. any thoughts?
probably a lot of us look at quite a bit of web.art/net.art. looking at Jess's site and this project, i'm struck with the quality and volume of the work you've been making with flash, Jess, a mix of writing and image, animation, interactivity, etc
I have to say I love flash even though many find it annoying and 'not net'. I am pretty prolific and it suits my slapdash tendencies.
I too was struck by the range in media.
you have used it more extensively than most, who have the odd piece in it.
it's promoting sensibility from that rough tool that counts.
I tried a couple of pieces in straight html - but it doesn't think like I think…html is logical flash is illogical lol!
i saw 'code scares me' somewhere
still does
When you say "think like you do" I take it you mean in re defaults & permissions?
yes, and flash is very visual, textual without so much subtext
in some ways tho the narrative remains static, this could be a positive or a negative…for me it leant an air of mysterious monumentality, like finding some stelae overgrown by jungle.
sometimes in the chat room it was like a dance… people coming and going
I found the textual aspects of Bob to be far more static than most of your other work, they moved, progressed from locus to locus, I saw Bob more like architecture.
that is because he was so unresponsive I think.
Do you work with your kids much in the Flash work, Jess?
yes - my daughter can code better than I… and I am always filming them
I remember reading you write "I want to play like my children".
I do wish... they have a natural energy and joy… (without wanting to sound twee)
yes, important to be able to play that way, isn't it.
I have a very hostile relationship with tech, generally and I would like to be able to just plllllaaaaayyyyy:)
good luck
perhaps bob should be on-going for a while.. keep it going.
yes, he will - at no-where.tv
don't you think play exists in that space between ignorance & mastery?
& between the net & the 'real'
between the reality and the shadow
art-not art
oh yes,
the thing is there is hardly any possibility of 'mastery'.
would u want it even if there WAS?
I must disagree, when one knows the likely outcome of any action there is no longer scope for play.
i agree with Blackhawk that the unknown is important to play.
However there must be a minimum familiarity w/ the elements or there can be no manipulation. It's not different analog/digital.
yes, agreed
I was thinking that with, say, Flash or Director, they're vast.
yes, but while play can be a part of art it's not art in & of itself, it needs to be... placed, w/in the context of a work.
it can also suggest art
depending on who the player is.
sure, some artists can't play, only experiment in a very controlled way
it needs to be able to communicate with others.
yes but conversely when it's no longer become about play but it can become about tech inofitself - that's when my eyes glaze.
I learned the difference growing up in my parents' studios, both 2nd Gen NYS Ab-Exers but w/ totally opposed process-methodologies…I don't know, it's possible to play when the tech itself is the content, there's just much more pure engineering involved... or it relates to the codedoc concept, some artists privilege the back-end, some don't.
my husband is a very tech composer… with a very perfectionist slant to his work so I can see how much it can be vital form some practice.
I think the thing with not delving into the possibilities beyond the defaults, the work can 'cliche out' quickly.
yes, agreed
one ends up w/ that odious thing called, "software art".
lol that word!
Marc : Hi everyone. please can we continue in the open chat room now - here is the URL for all to go to, where can all join each other...http://www.furtherfield.org/furtherstudio/online/index.htm
ok, time to move along.
where are we moving?
For the Open Discussion, the discussion panel were joined by rich, neil, Gifray, Chris, Marc G, ruth, frock, anniea, person, paul
hi all
marc: A big thanx to Doron Golan, Blackhawk, Jim Andrews, Jes Loseby & those who had the patience :-)
ruth : thanks everyone that was gripping:-)
neil : yep, thanks
frock : yes it was interesting : )
Yes - thank you doron, blackhawk, jim (here?)
thanks jess. no one had a chance to say it but it is a wonderful project
marc_g : Doron - should we continue with Blackhawk's theme...?
Just to finish my last point, the problem w/ so-called "software art" is that the artist surrenders a basic poiesis to some nameless project director hack who decided what the defaults should be in something like p/shop or director or whatever.
neil : hey blackhawk; wonder what you think about the actual studio - software art ?? :)
I'm amphibious, what interests me is something for lack of a better term I'm calling "studiocenrism" & I see as much of it in the virtual as in the actual…In some ways, more
neil : studiocentrism .. interesting
marc_g : swimming between territories...
... can you elaborate ?
neil : during development, this space felt like software art, but add the artist and visitors and it takes on a different nature.
I don't know MG, the permission of universal locus is in some ways the opposite of studiocentrism, it depends on the artist's intent
grifray : wonder what everyone thinks about the semiotic analyses of "code" that "back end" art offers... i'm usually biased towards "content" but BH's point about defaults can be taken as a critique of language/access that is important - no? or am i missing the point?
to put it another way, conceptual nomadism works in c/space if you already have your own virtual yurt.
neil : :) bh
marc_g : OK BH - What is interesting regarding using a term like residency/studio is that it consciously declares an art practice
agreed, one of the things I like about it
marc_g : we did hesitate at first...
neil : and the other terms .. work in progress, completed work, all the studio analogies
frock : it's difficult not to use such analogies
marc_g : virtual analogies = non analogues...
frock : even when they aren't particularly appropriate
yes, I don't have a problem with framework
frock : in the absence of other language
getting to what GF wrote about language/access, it's about having the look & feel of our environment defined by people who have no feeling for language (usually) &/or are totatlly unaestheticized. It's the ultimate in anti-democracy anti-meritocracy
grifray : but it interesting that here the "studio" is "opened" for critique (albeit by our small clique) whereas trad studio practice is about isolation...
marc_g : Yes - grifray,
Not nec, look at what Jess said about the random feed finding a way into the work.
marc_g : The funny thing is - that we are open to all...beyond the art community... as a potential and as a way of thinking.
(taking a big breath) bh are you not underestimating the possibilites of disruption of the delfault?
I hope not. That can be a powerful aesthetic vector, however work has to be able to function beyond a litannical or antithetical dedication.
marc_g : same here
but don't we also have a natural tendency to privilege the tools we make vis a vis the ones we buy pre-made?... even if we only do so to repurpose them. (the store bought ones)
marc_g : I think that it is much related to the issue of mediated as well as socially constructed handed down user mentality.
exactly
yes, but it seem that you are empowering tech as the ultimate censure
marc_g : so - as net influenced creative types - code is a small part of a larger picture regarding creativity
grifray : yeah, being able to question eCommerce structurally as well as via subject matter...
not tech per se, yet rather tekhne, which I see as a very human thing
marc_g : do people here feel that tech is a more masculine medium?...masculine orientated
frock : no
marc_g : lol...explain frock
person : well.... i guess it depends how one takes that.
ruth : What makes work work for me is when the artist has a strong enough connection with their subject that they wrestle to realise it in a way that communicates it and changes the way they would have used the tools in a way that it wouldn't if they were just doodling.
no not tech, but I think reponses to can be gender relational.
people are also scared by what they don't understand.
frock : i think there's a general perception in the mainstream media that technology should be masculine
grifray : or scared of what they do understand...
marc_g : so it is socially driven frock?
that's why the difference between tech (which is influenced by nurture) & tekhne (which is about nature) is so important.
frock : yes i believe so
marc_g : via media propagation...or habitual trappings
frock : both
no I think the tendancy to read tech as power is male
& then one gets monstrosities like Harroway...
marc_g : ah yes...ah yes...very literal
grifray : i saw a video about the "digital divide" in US - these elem studetns were all asked to draw comp scientists - they all drew white guys with pocket protectors ;)
frock : exactly
marc_g : lol
frock : & if women are going to do it, we must be freaks
god grief
marc_g : lol again..god is part of the probz here...
frock : definitely not nice girls in frocks ; )
which is why we don't need to tell women they need some heroic identifier just to accomodate tech, they have the same basic facility as men, it's not a gender thing (unless you're a {gasp} essentialist)
grifray : but one female stud drew a women of color, she said she wanted to make someone they wouldn't expect... that says something too:)
frock : but that's the token exception
depends on the field
grifray : yeah... making an opposite choice acknowledges the standard
frock : yep
It's ironic but the bio sciences are now at least 50% female, why? Because the "guys club" wouldn't let them into physics which was privileged at the time, but bio-sci is now where the action is.
ruth : where science gets squidgey
marc_g : or intuitive
marc_g : so, regarding codeworkers (as mez expounded) - does anyone see an evolution beyond the medium itself being accepted by academicc writers such as lev manovich?
My issue w/ LM is that he's contantly reinventing the wheel
ruth : how do you mean BH?
marc_g : yes i agree Lev does do that...
He is so profoundly ignorant of analog art history that he thinks NMA/D-Art has all these powers & permission which art has ALWAYS had, in some cases for miillennia
marc_g : well - he says a term...
or claiming the wheel was his...
marc_g : then at a confeence disagrees with his own term
^_^
grifray : BH - i've read different stats on the bio field - in terms of high end pro jobs - not disputing , but where'd you get the number?
Primary research a film I did about 10 years ago called "The 8th Day"
grifray : cool - thanks - i'll look for it
LM has fun. One gets the sense he's playing and people take him so seriously.
A lot of the new women scientists are S. or E. Asian since it's harder to bring that off in their orig countries
marc_g : JA- the problem is that institutions make his text serious... what was once ironic becomes reality
yes
Of course, academics are not known for imagination
lol
marc_g : and there is a vast difference between academic thinking and intelligent thought... they are different
Yes, well, given that, how seriously is the critical apparatus to be taken?
Which one? There are several in play by now
marc_g : as serious as it's influence JA...it beomes political...
or institutional...
marc_g : yes - gatekeeping
ruth : it also becomes boring
very
frock : right
marc_g : yes & that
grifray : hey, i'm an academic! but then again i guess i'm not that imaginative ;)
marc_g : lol...we know that grif but you the cutest one yet ...
That's why I term what I do "practical" or "applied" criticism
ruth : some of my best friends are academics :-)
frock : lol
grifray : well.. i guess i pose as an academic, does that still mean i'm cute? or do i lose that too?
marc_g : yes - grif...
grifray : damn
they're important, no doubt, I just don't want them defining culture in the broader sense
ruth : the term academic suggests somehow redundancy ... i prefer intellectual
I find it difficult that in net dialoges intuitive thinking is often debased
anyway I'm about to start teaching my first course so I'm not immune either
I think academia is as divided, diverse in critical opinions as elsewhere.
ruth : the problem isn't opinion... it's attitude
marc_g : Seriously grif - i think that there is a serious bridge between academia and creative practise
I don't think there's any unanimity.
no but there are forms
what makes sense in the hard sciences doesn't necessarily make sense in critical studies or philosophy
frock : there shouldn't be unanimity
ruth : academic approaches can lack any sense of urgency
I was talking to a chap as CSM the other day and all his tutors ar ex CSM students!... closed shops...
marc_g : I think that the 'soft group' option is a pretty inventive way move regarding net creativity
grifray : yes - teaching can be a very creative and critical activity, the problem is the standardization and legitmation process sometimes - making production necessary even if redundant or uncritical... IMHO
frock : (CSM?)
Central St Martin (art & design uni in london - pals with the tate)
ruth : yes jess that's it-closed shops breed bad attitudes-especially when they don't admit to being closed shops but pretend to be meritocracies
marc_g : but it does not matter anyway
well, it does...look how you have to fight for funding?
marc_g : well- if we create soft groups
which is why all the baby New Media depts offer a ray of hope
ruth : but perhaps only for us- and maybe only for now
marc_g : we can create our own small networks and groups everywhere... hard group is a static institution - a soft group is small group like ourselves & others
yes, completely but I am also for infiltration:)
yes, that's important, Marc, isn't it.
grifray : infiltration is key
frock : sometimes it can be hard to be independent...without a salary or an official organisation.
ruth : yes frock...but there are ways
marc_g : we have no salary here frock
frock : i know marc ; )
marc_g : lol...frock knows
frock : lol...but you have tubeway army ; )
marc_g : ah yes... 'are friends electric' & 'are friends eclectic'
frock : ; )
ruth : its hard work banging your head against the walls of harsh and unresponsive educational institutions though too.
frock : indeed
grifray : yes, the walls are hard... but there are moments.. not enough maybe.
frock : it's about finding a balance...a way to work with institutions...without having to be subsumed by them.
marc_g : But the trick is not to try and climb those walls - instead create your own connections...that in the end bleed into those institutional environments.
frock : yes marc
ruth : that's it marc...it's about emphasis
frock : it would be good if more institutions created opportunities for artists
frock : that allowed the artists to maintain independence too
marc_g : ah - but institutions will only give to those who smile nicely
frock : : ))))
ruth : it's good to ignore them whenever you can and smile at your neighbors and friends instead
marc_g : we need to create a solid platform amongst ourselves first so we have not so much to lose
smiling doesn't kill, its the 'change to fit us' I object to
Hey, at least you *have* institutions; stateside & it's a vast wasteland
marc_g : i am not against institutions - but wish not to be a masochist....
ruth : you have colleges though BH?
frock : you have lots of institutions in usa ... don't you?
grifray : sorry - gotta go, students are climbing the walls as i type... great conversation though. take care all.
marc_g : like the trad-artist waiting for that 15 minute rush which is handed down
yes & a pitiful few grant-giving & enabling orgs
marc_g : yes...bh
frock : well try working in new zealand
ruth : It's not all picnic hampers here BH:-)
marc_g : we have a different issue in uk regarding funding
new zealand tough?
frock : the problem in nz is that we are so small...we just don't have very much money...but we have a lot of creative people...who want money ... so it's very competitive... & universities hardly pay anything for lectures
really, I had do the (mistaken) impression that the arts were well funded, what a shame
ruth : Norway is the place to go apparently- they don't have enough people to spend their arts money on
marc_g : We are setting up a Festival in Norway by the way
What sort of festival, Marc?
ruth : a solar powered 24 hour festival ;-)
marc_g : a festival that is relational...solar powered...global
frock : great!
marc_g : relative...electric...intuitive...beyond the net and with the net...and everyone is allowed to join in everyone gets to say their story...beyond the walls
I admire what you do very much, Furtherfield folks.
& who sponsors it?
marc_g : we do
ruth : it can be done pretty cheaply
frock : on solar power
marc_g : we are having a meeting on 27th in norway about it
marc_g : and their military- giving everyone sleeping bags and tents...because no one likes them...yet
ruth : yes military sponsored- they haven't got enough to do ....hee;-)
frock : lol- don't they have some oil fields to defend?
marc_g : it is not military sponsered by the way
marc_g : yes - but we can defend them for them lol
frock : hehe
There are some great stories from NSK alum who were in the war in Yugoslavia about how art pieces won military engagements. Given time & $ I'd love to collect & publish them.
marc_g : yes that would be great BH...i'm very interested in the relationships between creative adventures and official org's.
Well, try dealing w/ corporations sometimes as we're forced to do on this side
marc_g : yes - it must be pretty tuff
in what way forced?
ruth : I've seen corporate invitations to artists on Rhizome Raw list and they are scary!
marc_g : because the US, mainly funds art via private means
ruth : the assumption that artists will do anything for money and attention
Just that there are relatively so few alternatives, & the universities take their own first so that's not an option for project funding.
ruth : BH we resorted to setting up a v. low-grade web design business to keep us afloat...and a bit independent
marc_g : yes - we are independent BH...furtherfield runs by us funding ourselves
R: Yes, that's a common strategy. Many orgs have parallel structures, one for- & the othe not-for-profit
marc_g : yes - then we apply for funding afterwards
bh, so how do you maintain your independance with that forced relationship?
J: Me personaly or The Thing?
both, really
TT has the parallel structure I mentioned, the non-profit side is therefore tax-free & able to put in for grants like the Rockefeller, NEA, &c. In my own case I try to be creative, a couple of years ago I ran a test-bed to find collaborations between NMArtists & corporations which by-passed the concept of the commissioning body.
Well it was nec, do you know Walczak/Wattenberg's "Apartment"?
yes...
Wattenberg worked for 2 years for Smart Money mag to build an app called "market map", the engine was 85% of the back-end for "apartment" so my idea was to get the corp to buy the rights to lease the back-ends of suitable d-art projects, thus the work is made & no one technically commmissions it, a side--fx is no "strange bedfellows" in re political compromise
ah, I see - an almost miltary-like campaign..
J: Yes, & strangely the military is the easist to deal w/ (cf MIT Media Lab)
really!?
Sure, they have lots of $ & don't ask a lot of Q's. No suspicious Board of Directors. Otherwise it's like walking into something by Josh On
but what about the 'political comprimise' you mentioned?? any?
Well, the corps are paying for honest labor, NOT the art, that alone avoids a deal of taint
Btw, we always need reviewers at TT, write me if you're interested & tell me where to find your extant published stuff
marc_g : yes - that's what I like about it...
frock : who is the next artist-in-residence here?
rich : me
frock : great...starting when?
rich : prep in december - live in jan and feb 2004
marc_g : we must meet and chat here another time...anyway...it's a great place to hangout... & debate