| TRANSCRIPT marc : a big thank you to andy deck and all who have taken the time, out of their schedule to visit here today/tonight deck : thanks also to neil for his help marc : this discussion will be between andy deck and myself (marc garrett), ruth catlow and neil jenkins, after that we can all collaboratively take control of the workings here on the visitorstudio. ruth : can i start? marc : ok deck : ok |  |
ruth : how does net art as you see it differ from other kind of art forms
ruth : in its ability to subvert media induced passivity?
ruth : and why is this important these days?
deck : ah, just noticed the last parts of the question
marc : what term, if there is one, would you feel more appropriately alligned to?
deck : the obvious potential is to reach people in their homes and offices, and to engage with them in some form of dialogue, which is completely different than television or other conventional broadcast media.
marc: hakim bey recently dissed networked creativity
deck : i take that as a challenge, and an important way of looking at art with an agenda
marc : would that be a type of conscious deconstruction?
deck : by the way, i didnt mean to dodge the subversion question, i'd like to be associated with it.
marc : lol
ruth : do you think that this ability to reach people in thier homes and offices has led to a new kind of relationship between you and your audience, and that in itself is a subversion?
deck : well, i think you can break this down and look at the relationship of the individual, artist to institutions or you can think, with bey, about the larger social direction and get a bit more despondent.
 | marc : hakim bey has not taken on the net and its positivities it seems, so what changes still need to take place, do you think? ruth : do you have a more optimistic attitude about social change brought about through a creatively conscious of the use of the tech ruth : oops osrry -out of turn! marc : do you think that practising net art has given rise to people thinking outside the fine art box? deck : certainly, i feel empowered in some ways, but not as much as some enthusasts may have believed in the early 90s marc : well that trend was a wave and some have jumped off it now lol |
deck : good riddance
marc : i agree
neil : has it brought in new audiences?
deck : i think it has. but then, competition for audiences is a constant struggle not a thing that shifts once and for all.
marc : do you think that grass roots net-based creativity can carry on in a more involved way somehow offering new vistas beyond the centralization of net creativity?
ruth : how are audiences for net art different from those for other forms? are they different?
deck : my sense is that net art is becoming more of a labor of love and an occupation that is not fashion
marc : so it is more of an everyday experience and not just art alone
deck : well, its hard to generalize about all the different audiences and i dont feel i even know about all the people who visit my site but i do think, for example, that the people who visit museums and galleries are a much smaller subset of the population than the people who will look at net art.
| neil : your work often brings in other people- collabyrinth for example - which you list as a software tool on search engines neil : maybe not realising they leave a trace of their own creativity deck : so there is a continuum between these two areas, some people who arrive for one type of content may explore the other neil : precisely.. do you get much feedback from such visitors ? |  |
ruth : with robotross you create spoof software for lay artists that connects art process with a kind of touristic attittude
ruth : a tool which consciously and mischeiviously prescribes their expression
deck : with robotross, i started making it as a kind of lark, and people liked the prototype, so i finished it
deck : it was more of an illustration of a lecture at first
neil : does the external influence change the outcome of the finished piece ?
deck : yes. for instance, i've listed a piece that i'm working on in the ascii software area of a directory (open directory project), and i'm monitoring how people use it. i'm not really happy with what is happening up till now, so i will keep working on it.
ruth : there is often the implication of something useful on offer, like with the piece that you made called withdrawal wizard, this again is quite anti- art
ruth : hinting at a kind of satirical didacticism
ruth : since the american abstract expressionism especially in the usa, everything art must be useless
marc : then there is the utlity of space - net space
deck : i am inspired to some extent by design and other cultures (west african for example) that have a tradition of incorporating really incredible visual imagination with useful objects. i think the look and feel of most software is lacking that other dimension beyond efficiency in most cases
deck : i think there is the fear of using space for communication, too, marc
marc : yes - space is liberating to share
deck : i want to say too, that i think neil has developed something quite fun and interesting in this visitors studio. all of you have done a good job developing this space.
marc : thanx and its free. lol - we've all worked hard collaboratively on this project, meeting online together in the evenings, trying to get people to visit and experience how good it actually is
neil : thanks andy
marc : i have a central question
deck : shoot
marc : with war sim (simulation) games - and their corporate driven lust for war
marc : imposing the myth for war
marc : via mediation etc
marc : via games
marc : who do you think is actively offering alternatives with such game modes?
 | deck : well, i think i am, but not necessarily in the form that people will always recognize as having a relationship to games deck : what i mean is that i've consciously decided to explore things that feel like they're missing from games deck : creatvie participation deck : lack of competition deck : lack of violence marc : what type of competition? |
neil : a complete antithesis of corporate internet
deck : its undeniable that competition is hugely popular, so its something that many other artists are trying to grapple with more directly
[40 minutes up: formal interview over]
ruth : shall we open this discussion to other visitors now?
neil : if it doesn t- please hit refresh - and you can all talk and mix on vs
[open discussion started here]
marc : if anyone wishes to say something just type and then press return ;-)
jim : do you actively propagate your work, andy, or just let the visitors accrue as they may?
deck : i may have missed some questions because my browser crashed
neil : apologies, it does crash sometimes :)
jim : do you actively propagate your work, andy, or let the visitors accrue as they may?
jim : it doesnt have to be marketing, or you could use the word marketing, i suppose
deck : well, i focus on propagation sometimes, but mostly i begin to feel like im losing my way if i get too far away from thinking about the works i'm making
deck : on the other hand, i try to find ways to build propagation into the works themselves.
jim : yes, prop in the work themselves, like that.
deck : by choosing functionality that is likely to be in demand, for example
neil : useful software
jim : what sort of such func?
deck : such as collabyrinth, which makes the ICO icons needed to decorate the location bar of a browser
| jim : can we can the logos? deck : can? neil : it also reveals the corporate ploys of information gatherers (ico) jim : the corporate logos in front of our noses jim : i was asking for a different graphic deck : heretic! neil : ! |  |
deck : its not that i feel like promoting iconism, its just a practical exploration on the road to more capable image collaboration systems
deck : the logos you see behind this chat are all contractors for the coalition of the willing
[an image added to the background of the VisitorsStudio]
deck : actually, this game of making alternative iraqi flags has become something of a popular fixation.
jim : i liked what you said about lowering the art flag.
jim : i am finding it hard to read here.
jim : case of the interface asserting itself over people.
deck : i lost the thread after the comments on the flag
neil : sorry, something that was added crashed me, marc, ruth and eartrumpet
deck : it happens
neil : shall we calm the mix down a bit
womanonfire : seizure!
deck : is there anyone who has a comment or something she wants to say?
neil : andy - where do you see your work heading at the moment - any particular ideas and technologies that you see as fruitful ?
deck : im developing a couple of groupware interfaces. using java. after that, im not sure. but i think i will try to do something with groupware animation or maybe video editing
deck : groupware video editing, compositon. getting people to make their own narratvies with video
neil : over a network ? or machine based /
deck : networked
neil : is java steady enough to handle that ?
deck : low bandwdth
deck : i think java is getting there, but i might work with flash, too.
neil : or will it have to be more platform specific ?
surd : i have enjoyed visiting your site over the years, andy: thanks for the terrific work!
deck : shuks
surd : video work with java?
neil : some amazing mixes here tonight as well.. thanks for all the contributions : )
 |
chris webb just joined the studio deck : actually, another thing that interests me is RSS. xml based data distribution neil : rss and xml are wondeful live information sources neil : yes, aggregated data shows similar threads to the network |
deck : i mean, people can borrow little news items and redistribute them.
surd : very interesting chat app. it can be great but it also can assert itself over all the people in the space.
neil : directly or in a remediated way ?
marc : this is my tune
neil : ok, with you
deck : evil evil evil - bush has an evangelical speech writer
marc : yes
neil : change the mix then surd : )
deck : i should say that what interests me about all this is the potential to create high visibility for types of content that usually have small audiences
surd : yes
deck : something is happening at your end that i am not seeing
marc : yes - i agree andy - what is great about this is that people can explore much potential together in a single space
surd : have you looked at vj software?
deck : no
neil : and google is about to float
marc : we also have this set up in live venues surd
surd : concerning work with video, vjcentral.com is a good resource.
neil : are you thinking about an alternate net or software client for this andy?
surd : there are lots of great apps like vjamm and arkaos
neil : or using existing networks. google, yahoo etc
neil : accessability in those terms is key
surd : yes the vj software is not usually meant for browsers, but it is interesting to see what it does
neil : and the browser does still have that
surd : i agree about browsers
surd : i use them myself at vispo.com
deck : in some respects, the focus on the browser holds back all kinds of interesting potential experimentation, but it has its advantages, too
surd : is your work mostly propagated through art channels or other?
surd : what others?
deck : most of my traffic these days is coming from the frenzy of bush hating, but id say that its a fairly even mix of art-world and other types of exposure
surd : do you work collab in the programming, or is that all you?
neil : w.sucks LOL
deck : mostly me. but i have delegated image making responsibilities to the visitors, for the most part
deck : i have been collaborating with some groups, oto. transnational temps. personal cinema.
| neil : except the calendar ; ) deck : well, there are many images in the calendar that come from the online drawing spaces neil : sure - the first piece of your work i saw was glyphitti neil : (hope i spelt that right) surd : i like the mp3 playing now, o sir, whitehouse. neil : what was the first data you pulled from the audience in a piece of work ? |  |
deck : i guess it was in college. i used to make sculptures at parties with stuff i had collected. i did a lot of requests
neil : i ask, cos my first piece of work was simply a test card that others could upload images to
deck : but i also did a lot of requested paintings and greeting cards when i was younger
neil : ah
neil : i have a similar experience cutting stencils !
deck : when i first used java, i was experimenting with a form of interaction that was not recorded. people immediately asked if they could collaborate in a multi-user way. so that inspired me to continue in that direction
sim : the first collaborative netart work that really caught my mind!
neil : wow, a huge learning curve indeed
surd : do you work as a programmer in a day job?
deck : not much. i am doing some free lance work this summer for a music downloading project. a few musicians with day jobs developing a new music site for amateur musicians. but mostly i earn a living from teaching
surd : what do you teach?
deck : some technical courses in web programming and net art, other historical courses about new media
deck : i was asking if anyone was interested in violent video games. i know some people who are borderline addicts, but who can see the socially problematic implications.
neil : no, i never saw the appeal of video games. let alone violent ones
ruth : yes i am interested in games, but not necessarily the kind that you have been thinking about
deck : i ask in part because i'm gathering information about them. i dont play them myself
surd : was thinking about games the other day.
surd : i did a shoot-im-up called arteroids
surd : a poetry shoot-em-up
neil : i think i saw that surd
ruth : i was interested in what you you were saying about loosing the competetive element
surd : the battle of poery against itself and the forces of dullness.
neil : e8zs game looks like its shaping up
marc : wow- financed by the pentagon - scary
deck : are 3D graphics really necessary for a game to be relevant and popular?
surd : art is not a game somebody wins, but there sure is a lot of jockeying for position.
neil : but again, an antithesis to war games
neil : and ruths work of course :)
ruth : ;-)
deck : personal cinema has been developing a 3D game, but the rigors of programming seem to be overwhelming the organization in a way
marc : the issue with war interactive games is very strange
neil : i must look that up..
deck : i think it raises some issues with respect to freedom of speech
marc : like action films that stimulate the male
surd : with games, the emphasis is on addiction which is pretty boring.
marc : when i have sex i might do it again
ruth : only big coms can afford the resources of big 3d graphical games
 | deck : yes, i think that games are as much driven by cognitive psychology as by narrative creativity neil : certainly surd : my fave computer game is/was myst. ruth : so the trick is to tap into the psychology using hacktivist principles deck : the culture wars have traditionally pitted the conservatives against things like violent entertainment |
marc : in the college that we teach at - 95 percent of animation students are boys - and they love industry based shoot em up games
neil : and the audience must demand ever increasing levels of understanding
deck : but now we are seeing the games industry making what amounts to war propaganda for the right
deck : making recruiting games, and training games for the T-for teen set
surd : what is that psychology?
neil : ah, ok
surd : recruitment?
ruth : the cognitive psychology that deck mentioned
deck : i meant, with resect to cog. psy. that the games companies are apt to take a scientific approach to studying how to addict people
ruth : velvet strike is a good hack
ruth : guerilla tactics in a game about guerilla warfare
sim : no myst is like a good book
deck : part of the problem with tapping into it is that the 3d graphics and massively multi-user aspects are technically complex
ruth : it works well because it works with the whole object of the game
deck : the war violence crossover phenomenologically is scary
marc : how about a game about killing presidents?
deck : there is one already
surd : yes, i think the big graphics and massively whatever are to be avoided in favor of strong art thrill and conceptual relevance.
ruth : so technical minds tend to be apolitical- happy to be functional for whoever pays the most?
neil : unfortunately it looks like that ruth !
marc : a game about a president being assasinated andy?
neil : no, concience must play a part..
neil : yes.. me too andy !
deck : (it was written up in the times. i can send you the link, marc)
Editor's note: link
marc : thanx andy that would be cool
surd : technical minds apolitical more than others?
deck : i certainly don't believe its anything other than enculturation
marc : structural tend to be institutionally informed
marc : we started furtherfield
deck : communication" is off limits in ny's established museums
neil : the bbc skinstrip piece was an eyeopener with that
neil : amazing they didnt pull it !
marc : i feel that people are now more able to be creative outside prescribed boxes
deck : the game corporations are very departmental. tasks are delegated to specialists.
surd : do you you teach comp sci students at all, andy?
neil : i love working with people who have no idea what these machines or the network are capable of. they have a fantastic sense of ignorance and clarity at the same time
ruth : finding different interior concerns
marc : i think that we need a more connected social science with traditional science bodies as well
deck : i dont think that science is the problem. it's more the ways the application of science is being pushed by corporate greed that are offensive
neil : here here
ruth : time to entwine art and science research
ruth : so that science can be liberated from material utility
neil : utility is best created by the network, for the network
deck : do we need to focus first on a new spirit of cooperation in the network and outside it?
neil : we do, probably starting from the outside in
ruth : yes and draw people with non financial ambitions into the spirit of the network
sim : absolutely
marc : unilver - washes whiter, washes all the dirt away
| marc : yes we do andy neil : soap to clean those dirty hands and a slap for the people who work the land neil : tell us ! marc : move away from art justification via history and move into behaviour surd : yes, thts facilitated by the net, quite well, isn't it. sim : seems there is kind of a new language |  |
surd : do you make your source code avaailable, andy?
deck : yes
deck : i've been reading propaganda by jacques ellul and he refers to marx's movement as a form of successful propaganda (well not tooo successful)
deck : it got me thinking that even if, as the pomo condition tells us, the master narratives are dead, propaganda is still raging
marc: well thanx everyone, for turning up, it's been a great evening, hope to see you here again at future visitorsstudio events.
marc: special thanx to andy deck!